Forums - WTF? Ken AAA is total crap! Show all 32 posts from this thread on one page Forums (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/index.php) - Strategy & Tactics (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=10) -- WTF? Ken AAA is total crap! (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=14776) Posted by Mr. Smellypants on 04:25:2001 07:08 AM: What's up with everyone worshiping ken and saying he can be top tier if not high second? I've used ken before and to me he is total crap. As a point character he is worthless even with his 40% air combo because his launcher is low-priority, no-range crap, your more likely to land jill's tyrant super than land a ken launcher. He has absolutely NO manuverability, (no dbl jump/airdash and slow-ass dash) even with assists I can't see how ken on point can beat even a decent storm or cable. His stamina is below average, his supers are all pretty bad, and he has absolutely no screen control abilities. As an AAA I find him to be quite useless also, all the ken fanboys out there claim he's so fucking great cuz the shoryuken is invincible and can break traps. Big fuckin deal, so can cammy's. Cammy AAA has just as much invincibility as kens and from my experience it seems to come out alot quicker. Not only that but cammy's abilities as a point character are vastly superior to kens. Not only that but Ken AAA doesn't do shit for damage, if u get all 3 hits (opponent must be grounded when he gets hit) it will do about as much damage as cammy AAA's 1 hit. More often than not when your using ken AAA it will be against an airborne opponent, if thats the case the AAA hits once and does a grand fucking total of 6 damage. Unlike cammy, ken AAA will keep going to the top after hitting the opponent and won't bounce back which means - lag time. It's happened to me where I've hit an airborne cable with ken AAA, only to have cable land and AHVB my ken. AAA wise - if you want damage and screen control go for captain commando if you want keepaway and traps, go for blackheart if you want combos, go with cyc or psy if you want a good invincibility assist go with cammy or maybe jin, but DEFINATELY not ken. Posted by JaHa on 04:25:2001 07:59 AM: sorrie bud but cammies AAA is not invincible as kens ken can go through freakin hailstorms..and he cant get stopped before it comes out like Capcoms..he can get stopped my dooms AAA and i seen em all get stopped psylock cyke cammy u name it...kens is the onlee one thats invincible until he comes down..everyone has invincible periods..for ken to stop traps and rushdowns turns the game around Posted by JaHa on 04:25:2001 08:04 AM: Unlike cammy, ken AAA will keep going to the top after hitting the opponent and won't bounce back which means - lag time. It's happened to me where I've hit an airborne cable with ken AAA, only to have cable land and AHVB my ken. well thas the AHVB for ya one of da fastest supers in da game u jus gotta be careful when cable has alot of levels,,but thats a diff thread..u jus seem mad and pissed off have a beer or a cig and calm down to play another day and accept that kens AAA is da best or 2nd..no need to hate him Posted by SSF2T on 04:25:2001 08:24 AM: Ken as player/active character, not to bad. Ken as assist, maybe better, maybe worst, depending on the player. Ken's problems are that he has to get in close to do most, if not all, of his attacks. And his air-combo varies on how many hits from ground to air, sometimes 40%, and other times it's 60-70%. The earlier the hurricane kick the stronger the combo, but on the other hand, the likely hood of missing. Ken dash is not bad either, if you are hit, you are consider air sometimes, giving you the chance of escaping some combos. Ken's supers are good either DHC, or for invincibility. Now for Ken as assist. Unlike Ryu, Ken hits multiple times, which has it's ups, and downs. Up, you can combo with it, if you are fast enough. Down, it knocks them so damn high, that most of the time you miss your chance. Up, its invincible until he falls. Down, goes so damn high, that it causes many problems, like with Cable. Up, fast VHC. Down, he goes straight up, hitting no one, unless your at the corner, and getting people to the corner is extremely hard for Ken. I don't side with Ken sucks, or Ken Good. I just side with "It all depends on your skill...." Posted by Mr. Smellypants on 04:25:2001 08:52 AM: heh heh, sorry if I came off sounding pist. It just confuses me why so many ppl are such ken fanboys and they worship his assist. What I said about cammy AAA is that it has just about as many if not more practical uses than ken AAA even if it does have a bit less invincibility. For example you say ken can go thru hailstorm, what practical use does that have? He's gonna go thru hailstorm and hit nothing because most of the time a hailstorm is coming at u while storm is on other side of screen. Not to mention 75% of the hailstorms I get hit by are from DHC's. Assuming storm is close enough to get hit by ken AAA while doing hails, what does this accomplish? Storm gets hit for 6 damage and ken saves you from about 4 pixels worth of chip? I just plainly don't see why ken is even used as an AAA and ppl claim him to be top assist when you can pick cammy who's AAA I think is better and is a better person on point. 90% of the traps you break with ken AAA u can break with cammy. In the words of justin wong "cammy is a trap breaker". So why is it everyone gives the love to ken? EDIT- Your wrong that ken AAA is best or even second best. Jin, cammy and CapCom AAA's are more versatile and abusable and those chars are all vastly superior to ken while on point. Posted by Seizure on 04:25:2001 08:58 AM: cammy Cammy 4life! Posted by DeathFromAbove on 04:25:2001 08:58 AM: I agree that Ken's assist isn't nearly as god-like as it is purported to be. First, I'll give it it's dues: It is the best assist for stopping Doom assists, since it's the only one (that I know of) that doesn't get stopped short if Doom is dropped on top of you. It's somewhat useful to rushdown characters, who can dash in and drop it, with the confidence that it will beat or tie whatever else may be called in. And it goes through BH's demons and Doom's photons. Now, having said that, it has major drawbacks: It's pretty bad at stopping rushdown, mainly because of it's enormous lag. This assist can be called only about every 6th second, and it has a TON of lag during which you must try to protect Ken. So most rushdown characters can bait Ken out, evade for 2 seconds, and rush you down with impunity for the next 4 seconds + however long they can keep you in block and/or hitstun. The bad lag also is detrimental to rushing characters, who benefit enormously from having something invincible to drop on the opponent, should they momentarily lose their momentum. Final Evaluation: the assist is tops for stopping up-close trapping, but nothing special for stopping long range trapping, and does not help rushdown characters as much as most others. And that's my 2 cents, -DFA Posted by SSF2T on 04:25:2001 09:03 AM: My guess, to your question at the bottom. Maybe because he's white. And the question above that, maybe because of his longer invincibility time. I'm not sure if Cammy stays as long, since I don't play her much. Posted by ID on 04:25:2001 10:06 AM: Hehe..try using cammy against a spiral, BH, or doom based trap. Cammy'll bounce off swords,demons, rocks, which doesent help you any, whereas ken keeps goin, an goin, an goin.. Posted by Mr. Smellypants on 04:25:2001 10:55 AM: quote: Originally posted by ID Hehe..try using cammy against a spiral, BH, or doom based trap. Cammy'll bounce off swords,demons, rocks, which doesent help you any, whereas ken keeps goin, an goin, an goin.. Well Damn, You got me there, I can admit I'm wrong @_@. I still think her point ability and more reliable 1-hit AAA damage makes her a better AAA to pick. Posted by SSF2T on 04:25:2001 10:57 AM: Hey if you got the new Vid here, at Shoryuken, you will sort of see how Ken's Assist is put to work. Try it out, and see what happens. It's the Viscant v. Duc video. Though he could have won if he had better reactions to Sentinals Rocket Punch. And at the end he could have finished it off. Also if he used his d.fierce/launcher more, he could have won since Shotoken's d.fierce/launcher is the ultimate launcher. It knock Sentinal out of his attacks. He might have been able to win at the end too. Posted by Mr. Smellypants on 04:25:2001 11:21 AM: quote: Originally posted by SSF2T Also if he used his d.fierce/launcher more, he could have won since Shotoken's d.fierce/launcher is the ultimate launcher. What kind of crack are ya smoking there dude? Must be some powerful shit if you think that. Ken's and all shoto's launchers are some of the WORST in the game. -No Priority -No Horizontal Range -Lots of lag when blocked -Difficult to combo into (very hard to combo from jump-in and must be really close to combo into from c.lk) Need I say more? I think the only non-shotos with worse launchers are roll and servbot. Posted by SSF2T on 04:25:2001 11:34 AM: quote: Originally posted by Mr. Smellypants What kind of crack are ya smoking there dude? Must be some powerful shit if you think that. Ken's and all shoto's launchers are some of the WORST in the game. -No Priority -No Horizontal Range -Lots of lag when blocked -Difficult to combo into (very hard to combo from jump-in and must be really close to combo into from c.lk) Need I say more? I think the only non-shotos with worse launchers are roll and servbot. If you ever try to beat Spider-Man's j.rndh, then you know that Shotoken is the best. And no the have no range. And it's not difficult to combo into, you need to dash in that's all. And the lag, you just need to react faster, and throw out something to cancel it, like a fireball, since many players that I have seen, just tends to block/guard close range projectiles. Posted by Mr. Smellypants on 04:25:2001 11:56 AM: quote: Originally posted by SSF2T If you ever try to beat Spider-Man's j.rndh, then you know that Shotoken is the best. And no the have no range. And it's not difficult to combo into, you need to dash in that's all. And the lag, you just need to react faster, and throw out something to cancel it, like a fireball, since many players that I have seen, just tends to block/guard close range projectiles. Please explain to me how a shotokan launcher has more range and priority than strider's launcher, either of cammy's launchers or any one of storm's 3 launchers. While your at it explain how a shotokan launcher will outprioritize a J.FP from Magneto, Storm, Strider or Sentinel. A blocked fireball at close range can be punished with a AHVB or rocketpunch xx HSF. You obviously have NO clue what you are talking about, since when is spiderman's J.RH even a threat to begin with? You shouldn't even use launchers as an anti-air seeing as how any jump-in attack an experienced opponent will use will easily trade hits with any launcher. Posted by Cybernator on 04:25:2001 02:17 PM: Ken's AAA can easily break a strider/doom trap Posted by Iceman on 04:25:2001 03:15 PM: The one and only thing Ken has over Cammy is that his AAA goes though physical object while Cammy's will not. So, if Doom rocks or Blackheart's air demons are giving you fits, Ken is going to do better then Cammy. Other then that, yes, Cammy is a better choice. Posted by DemiDeviMatt on 04:25:2001 04:38 PM: well thebn ken aaa has the most...the most priority as an aaa in the game. try him agaisnt a guile or cammy hell win, im not saying hes good and i aint saying hes bad, but hes good as a defense for rushdowns, but cammy is aswell, but cammy is a much better character than ken, so id say cammy... Posted by Dasrik on 04:25:2001 06:50 PM: quote: Originally posted by Mr. Smellypants Please explain to me how a shotokan launcher has more range and priority than strider's launcher, either of cammy's launchers or any one of storm's 3 launchers. Well, shoto c.fierce actually has the ability to beat a ton of shit when timed right, as long as it's not energy based. I've seen DAN's c.fierce of all people's, beat Magneto's jump roundhouse cleanly. quote: You shouldn't even use launchers as an anti-air seeing as how any jump-in attack an experienced opponent will use will easily trade hits with any launcher. Launchers as anti-air indeed don't have much use anymore, since almost anyone who knows anything will backup their jump-ins with an assist. Still, there are worse launchers. Captain Commando's stand rh? Cyclops' stand strong? Blackheart's stand strong? Come on. Shoto launcher is not as bad as you think it is. Posted by TS on 04:25:2001 07:14 PM: quote: Originally posted by Mr. Smellypants What's up with everyone worshiping ken and saying he can be top tier if not high second? Nobody who's any good will tell you that. quote: As a point character he is worthless even with his 40% air combo because his launcher is low-priority, no-range crap, your more likely to land jill's tyrant super than land a ken launcher. Dasrik all ready commented on the launcher thing... quote: He has absolutely NO manuverability, (no dbl jump/airdash and slow-ass dash) even with assists I can't see how ken on point can beat even a decent storm or cable. Erm. Most characters can't. quote: His stamina is below average, his supers are all pretty bad, and he has absolutely no screen control abilities. Cammy has worse Stamina, and his DP super (shoryuureppa) is actually pretty good. First DP is pretty much invincible, so you can literally punish people for whiffed jabs. You can't stick out anything within like 3/4 screen of Ken on the ground. Shinryuuken is OK do DHC him in with if you land certain things, same with his HK super (though it isn't safe so you should probably go for a throw if blocked). And you act like Cammy has more than 1 1/2 good supers. As for mobility, jump hurricane kick is surprisingly good, so long as you don't do anything stupid with it. His dash is pretty average. And the air combo, as someone pointed out, can do up to 60%. Which is more than a KBA combo. Ooooh. quote: As an AAA I find him to be quite useless also, all the ken fanboys out there claim he's so fucking great cuz the shoryuken is invincible and can break traps. Big fuckin deal, so can cammy's. Cammy AAA has just as much invincibility as kens and from my experience it seems to come out alot quicker. Not only that but cammy's abilities as a point character are vastly superior to kens. Not only that but Ken AAA doesn't do shit for damage, if u get all 3 hits (opponent must be grounded when he gets hit) it will do about as much damage as cammy AAA's 1 hit. More often than not when your using ken AAA it will be against an airborne opponent, if thats the case the AAA hits once and does a grand fucking total of 6 damage. Unlike cammy, ken AAA will keep going to the top after hitting the opponent and won't bounce back which means - lag time. It's happened to me where I've hit an airborne cable with ken AAA, only to have cable land and AHVB my ken. AAA has all ready been commented on. Just for the record, I'm not even close to being a Ken fanboy. The only reason I ever play him in MvC2, is because he's part of the best team in the game (Team Shoto owns, and you know it). That's like saying everyone is a Cable fanboy whether they use him or not, because they recognize what the AHVB is. quote: EDIT- Your wrong that ken AAA is best or even second best. Jin, cammy and CapCom AAA's are more versatile and abusable and those chars are all vastly superior to ken while on point. While I agree that Cammy is better than Ken on point, I think it's a little hasty to say that Jin (and less so CapCom) are "vastly superior to Ken while on point." Posted by soup or man on 04:25:2001 07:16 PM: somebody wrote Jin's assist before Psylocke, and while i love Jin to death, Psylocke's AAA beats Jin's AAA. Posted by CiddypooKun on 04:25:2001 09:08 PM: Pffh, don't exaggerate on Ken's launcher's lack of range. Play Chun-Li, you'll see what lack of range is. -_- Posted by Truedragon on 04:25:2001 09:50 PM: For invincibility Ken's aaa, is better than Cammy's. But IMO he doesn't have a strong point game, and that's why Cammy should be chosen over him for invincibility aaa-not because her's is better, but cause she has a better point game.(Plus Ken's aaa has more horizontal range and can break strider/doom, but his point isn't really good, making cammy the better choice IMO, if you're looking for an invincible assist.) Posted by SinfestBoy on 04:25:2001 11:08 PM: ROTFLMAO!!! NEVER EVER DASH WITH KEN! USE HIS ROLL! his roll is frikken awesome. its fast, long, and invincible (to the best of my knoledge) and It isnt that hard to land his launcher. His Jumping HK tatsumaki will get him across the screen, and he can punish ALOT of across-screen moves with a shoryureppa. yes, its that fast. Ken is like strider, he seems OK, but when he gets on the right team.... phew! The best Ken centered team is definatly Ken, CapCom, Sentinel. Sentinel assist hits, roll in, launch, combo. land one light attack, thats a launcher and about... 50%. shinryuken DHC's Perfectly into Captain Sword, And you can land shinryuuken in soooooooo many places. Ken also has the highest priority move in the game (shoryuken). I can break out of strider doom with it, the moment strider teleports, jab shoryuken, and your out. Posted by Mr. Smellypants on 04:26:2001 01:28 AM: quote: Originally posted by SinfestBoy ROTFLMAO!!! NEVER EVER DASH WITH KEN! USE HIS ROLL! his roll is frikken awesome. its fast, long, and invincible (to the best of my knoledge) and It isnt that hard to land his launcher. His Jumping HK tatsumaki will get him across the screen, and he can punish ALOT of across-screen moves with a shoryureppa. yes, its that fast. Ken is like strider, he seems OK, but when he gets on the right team.... phew! The best Ken centered team is definatly Ken, CapCom, Sentinel. Sentinel assist hits, roll in, launch, combo. land one light attack, thats a launcher and about... 50%. shinryuken DHC's Perfectly into Captain Sword, And you can land shinryuuken in soooooooo many places. Ken also has the highest priority move in the game (shoryuken). I can break out of strider doom with it, the moment strider teleports, jab shoryuken, and your out. Sinfest, Ken's roll has NO invincibility and if your using shoryureppa to punish ppl from across screen, you must be one hell of a moron. I made this thread as a response to fanboys like this who grossly exaggerate his ability. I appreciate alot of the points many of you made, hell you proved me wrong on alot of stuff I didn't know. Basically what I meant in the first place is. -Ken's AAA isn't the BEST in the game. -Ken is at best a mediocre character on point. -If your using Ken, chances are having cammy in that slot would do ya alot more good. Posted by TS on 04:26:2001 02:47 AM: A good example of why Ken's AAA is better than Cammy's is in the Viscant vs Duc video that was uploaded today. But outside of trap teams, I suppose Cammy's is OK (though BH can give it some problems). Posted by Yumi Saotome on 04:26:2001 03:34 AM: Ever tried the difference between Sentinel/Blackheart/Cammy vs Sentinel/Blackheart/Ken? Ken destroys rushdown characters better than Cammy. His AAA will destroy Strider, Sentinel, Spiral, and Magneto. Try it and see. There is a HUGE difference. Granted, Cammy plays better at the point than Ken (more possibilities, better setups). But in my case, by the time I have it down to Ken, I usually do enough chip damage to run away. And Ken is VERY good at running away (super jump, hurricane kick, etc.) The Shoyu-Reppa super kicks ass because it will punish ANYTHING the opponent throws out (at half-3/4 screen of course). It will break lots of bull shit traps too. Try blocking a super and then instantly retaliating with a shoyu-reppa. It hits almost all the time. Ken also can't be hit by guardcrush into AHVBx3 :-). Cammy is a better character overall, but Ken is a better assist and runaway. Posted by Tuff Daddy on 04:26:2001 03:48 PM: My god the debate begins again. Spider-Dan and Pryde have debated the use of Ken vs Cammy already in this classic thread topic here: http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/sho...?threadid=12776 I really hope someone places with Cammy at B5. Posted by ej_333 on 04:26:2001 04:14 PM: quote: Originally posted by Yumi Saotome Ken also can't be hit by guardcrush into AHVBx3 :-). Are u talking about doing Ken's uppercut after blocking Cable's Fierce shot? Um, I've never seen this myself, but although Ken avoids the first part of the AHVB, won't he just land onto the AHVB when he recovers from Shoryuken? Posted by DarthSalamander on 04:26:2001 06:13 PM: quote: Originally posted by Mr. Smellypants Sinfest, Ken's roll has NO invincibility and if your using shoryureppa to punish ppl from across screen, you must be one hell of a moron. Shoryureppa is pretty damn fast. I have messed around with it too much but you can at least counter laggy supers with it from across the screen. Posted by Spider-Dan on 04:26:2001 07:05 PM: ej_333: Ken will land *on* the AHVB instead of in it, which means that you won't be able to be hit with the full set. (note that the original poster said he can't be hit with "AHVBx3") Speaking in the sense of AAA alone, as has been said, Ken's assist does something that no other assist in the game does (completely and invincibly draws a line through the screen), and if you do get the full 3 hits it does the most damage of any AAA (IIRC, Commando's does the most for one hit). Cammy's AAA is simply a bootleg Ken assist, almost invincible (but not quite), nearly unstoppable (but just not enough)... there is almost nothing that Cammy's assist works for that Ken's does not, whereas there are a lot of important things that Ken's works for that Cammy's does not (BH demons, Spiral knives, Doom rocks). Debating which one of the assist-only characters (Cammy, Ken, Commando, Psylocke, Jin) is best on point is pretty silly, they are all extremely one-dimensional (except for Commando who can play a half-assed keepaway game). Posted by Mr. Smellypants on 04:26:2001 09:15 PM: To me I can only see ken being put to good use as a counter character. I would never put him on my normal team like alot of other people do but if for example I was getting taken down by strider/doom or a good spiral knifetrap, I would put ken in so I could win a round. I personally don't think Ken should be used as a "mainstream" AAA such as the likes of Cyc, Psy, and Commando but rather more of a guy to counter one specific team, sorta like how felicia counters strider/doom. Posted by ej_333 on 04:26:2001 09:20 PM: quote: Originally posted by Spider-Dan ej_333: Ken will land *on* the AHVB instead of in it, which means that you won't be able to be hit with the full set. (note that the original poster said he can't be hit with "AHVBx3") Oh whoops, good point, I saw that AHVB x3, but I kinda ignored it for some reason, hehe. All times are GMT. The time now is 12:21 AM. Show all 32 posts from this thread on one page Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.2.4 Copyright © Jelsoft Enterprises Limited 2000, 2001.